Please Click Here for the link to the Wiki Chapter, the Runespoor Smuggling!

I thought that we might start having a discussion about Runespoor venom.  It seems we're all very interested in this potent stuff of which we have nearly no canon information.

Here is what I posted in the Compendium earlier:

[Name of Ingredient:] Runespoor Venom

[Use:] The venom of a mature runespoor is a magically volatile substance.  Because of its high reactivity to magic, it is very very useful as a quickener for even the sludgiest of potions.  It can quicken the acting power of a potion by astonishing multiples.  When its not acting as an accellerant in other potions, it is the main ingredient in a disastrously effective poison that can be delivered just by skin contact.

It is also a very handy booby trap.

[Preparation:] After the venom leaves the runespoor's living fang, it will quickly become active.  Runespoor venom is difficult to treat in wounds because it does not respond well to magical healing.  When milking runespoor venom from the fang, you should do it in a magically clean environment and put it directly into a safe container.  Glass works well, actually.  Then it should be stowed away from magical influence.

Beware when storing or hiding it.  Many a potioneer's hovels have been a smear at the end of the front walk after an Auror had poked about with a lit wand.

[Regulation and Skill Level:] Extraordinarily illegal.  And so grievously dangerous that only the most reckless wizards who have grown tired of breathing should attempt to handle it.  If the venom comes into contact with any magic, it will explode into a very very nasty, corrosive mess.  So it can not be shrunk, vanished, kept in a runic coffer, heated by magical fire, left out in the moonlight, stirred with an enchanted wand or cooked in a magic kettle.  It cannot be scourgified, transfigured or even shed with the light of a lumos, lest it ignite into a chaotically destructive explosion.

[Submitted by:]  Sarah

Melissa got in touch with me about some changes she'd like to throw in, and Dazmond's plot could be helpful too.  So instead of monopolizing, I hoped we could put our heads together and get a solid look at this. =)

Things to possibly change:

1. There should be some safe-handling procedures so that things fit with Adon's smuggling investigation.  Perhaps these safe-handling procedures are expensive, difficult or somewhat not well-known.  As in "do not handle unless you're an expert and we mean it"

2. Venom from the different heads has slightly different properties.
a.  The Left Head is the planner.  It's not mentioned to have venom, but I say we could give him some.  That could be the very benign, anti-venom type substance.
c. The Right Head is the highly venomous one and it's venom is the dangerous potent stuff we talk about above.

What do you guys thing? Natalie? Melissa? Others?

Oh yeah.  I was thinking about what an unmitigated venom explosion would actually do.  I don't think it should be normal combustion with fire and kaboom and all.

But perhaps the venom expands exponentially in volume, spraying caustically over everything.  It's very poisonous, so maybe upon skin contact it causes whatever it touches to be sick sick sick.

a.  The Left Head is the planner.  It's not mentioned to have venom, but I say we could give him some.  That could be the very benign, anti-venom type substance.
c. The Right Head is the highly venomous one and it's venom is the dangerous potent stuff we talk about above.

Hmm - the nerdy side of me that, in Sasha's mind is trying to figure out the trends between the magical and mundane science worlds, is saying stick with the usual expectations on this one.  Anti-venom usually has to be derived from the venom itself and it seems like creating antivenom from a runespoor should be pretty difficult.  If it could simply be derived from the less potent stuff than once someone was able to handle the creature, it'd be rather easy to create. 

Anti-venom is usually derived (as I understand) from taking very very small portions of a venom sample and putting into the blood stream (injecting it) of an intermediary animal (usually a horse or similar animal).  When the animal makes antibodies to it, the antivenom is derived from that animal's blood. 

If the venom used to make the antivenom was the less potent of the two, it seems the antivenom would be rather easy to invent and derive.  I kind of like the idea that, because of the extreme nature of the venom from the more potent head, it has taken an extremely long time for anyone to find a way to make antivenom and - perhaps - there's some ethical dilemmas in making it at all.  It may be that it is so very extremely potent that even the tiniest amount kills the intermediary animal before any antibodies can be produced.  Perhaps, only highly magical animals with some amount of self-healing properties can withstand the introduction of the venom enough to be effective in making the anti-venom.  If, for instance, only animals like unicorns (there may be others) could be used to make it, it could be one of the medical moral dilemmas in the magical world.  Like stem cell research or animal testing is in the mundane world. 

Just my nerdy thought.

I'll second the nerdy thought and add my own:

Adon's been investigating potential black-market, medicinal useage of the venom as a powerful anticoagulant. Of course, as stated before, it would need to be very diluted for this capacity, but I think that Adon's been looking at doctors as potential recipients of the venom (not just because he doesn't trust them -- though he doesn't) but because runespoor venom has powerful, possible advancements and exciting new vistas in medicine. That's why he was demanding to speak to a toxicologist after the Kabir incident: I think he questioned the man.

Our choice on whether or not we want someone in Mungo's to actually be purchasing it illegally for that reason (and the anti-venom).

As for the actual transport, I like the approach that it must be highly specialised rather than highly Muggle. It just makes more sense for Ministry corruption and very high-level, professionalised, mercenary-like traders that would seem to fit with both the Trevor Reid and past history with Tamis Raynor's prior encounters with these traders. I like the idea of it needing to be transported in very fragile vessels (glass I like); Elle and I had talked about the eggs (but I think, potentially, also the venom) arriving in Pip’s Perpetually Puffy Pillows. Magical product. Innocuous enough for appearance's sake.

Another thing of note -- it's not the debate of what the venom does as much as where it comes from -- but Dawn and I had sort of established previously -- that the Runespoors (the live animals) are now kept in Jordan in the desert, where they are kept out of sight and out of their original (and therefore suspect) habitat. The products are then shipped elsewhere through illegal trade. But that is why the Near Eastern Auror's office in particular has been encountering a lot of this. And why Bernier was attacked first.

OK, sorry for the delayed response -- there have been so many interlocking things to consider as concerns Daz's part in all this, and I've been brewing over it for a good 24 hours, so.  I've also been trying to look at old threads here to see what sort of things have been established in-character.

Thinking like a potionsmaker, my first inclination is to get all the little details worked out that would distinguish the pure venom's properties from the extractions and uses of various amounts or in something like an anti-venom.  What it sounds like to me, looking at the Compendium entry, is that the venom (like any poison) can safely be used in minute doses as "medicine" -- or, in this case, as an accellerant for potionsmaking.  But the pure venom, in larger amounts, is mixed with a few other things to create basically a Venom Bomb (which, upon impact or upon exposure to magic, would cause the venom to expand, explode, and spray all over everything -- infecting everything that gets a sufficient dose of the stuff).  And yet, this explosive property is held by the venom itself.  So that even a small vial containing the venom, used exclusively for potionsmaking, would expand and explode if it came in contact with magic or was dropped.  The purpose, then, of creating a "venom bomb" is to increase the amount of liquid that's released.  Say the venom is just as lethal when diluted by certain liquids.  More liquid = more splash range to distribute the poison.  Is that the idea?

Question #1.  How much venom does a Runespoor give at a milking?
-- I think that snakes give anywhere from an eyedropper's full to a quarter cup, usually. 

2.  How much venom does it take to poison a person?
-- I would say that the safe doseage cannot exceed a few drops or something.

3.  How are people usually treated for Runespoor bites (on AO) and do they die because an anti-venom does not yet exist?  Do they die only if it is not "caught" in time?
-- Jason Marren:  “I need a scalpel, three suture kits, collection chambers, and the Runespoor antidote.” Pausing, he gripped the man once more, frowning. “If you can’t find that, get me the flesh-eating slug venom… and a lot of fluid to flush it out with.” . . . . “Start with the analgesic, please, and then give her the blood replenishing potion. Watch for reactions, and then proceed with the other potions. If she can’t swallow…” Shrugging, he glanced briefly at Moira. “Do what you must.” . . . . “Last thing we’ll administer is the Runespoor antidote… I want to clean it up as much as I can.” . . . . “I’m going to patch the wound up, we’ll keep fluids going in, watch her vitals, continue to administer the antidote every twenty minutes for four hours…” Biting his lower lip as he applied a numbing spell to the skin around where he would be working, he thought a moment longer. “And we’ll keep her pain free for the next few hours. Once those four hours are up, she should be good to go.”

4.  What are the symptoms of a poisoning?
-- Covi's leg was infected by runespoor venom.  I think that this tells us that runespoors SPIT venom, too.  The wound was extremely painful and oozing blue stuff, even bubbling.  Apparently it's possible that a bite can breed runespoor eggs, and that you can tell when there are eggs when you see a sort of orange glow on the bite.  The venom spreads throughout the body, turning the skin lavender in the affected areas. 
-- In an extreme poisoning, could we have some magical symptoms going on?  I'm thinking that since the right head is critical and often drives the other heads crazy... why not have the poison gradually drive a person insane?  They could hear a hissing, critical voice that brings them down to the depths of crazytown.  Maybe?

5.  What is the difference between the current Runespoor antidote and the unknown, untried anti-venom?
-- Could it be that they have a way of treating a fresh exposure to a small amount of venom, but other forms of poisoning get too far gone and the antidote isn't strong enough?

6.  Could a House-Elf produce anti-bodies? 
-- This is the only magical creature that Dazmond had access to within the cave.  It could be that nobody ever considered the possibility because the only known animals are extremely revered and powerful (like a unicorn), whereas House-Elves are generally considered subservient and weak.  But in the books it is clear that they have a formidable set of magics apart from Wizards.  It could be that they are extremely powerful beings who, because of their position in society, are seen to be powerless. 


For Daz's plot, it is looking like this:
1.  She had to create a potion that would seriously befuddle her recent memory in order to escape and return to London.
2.  She made the antidote to this memory-obfuscating potion and tucked it into her boot.  Knowing herself, she knew she would find the unlabeled vial and wouldn't rest till she had tested it and finally downed the whole thing.  Properties of one or two drops would cause severely strange reactions which would frustrate her with an obsessive curiosity until she finally drank the full dose.
3.  This potion used Runespoor venom, but more than the minute dose.  She needed it to be extremely powerful in order to operate successfully, and she took a chance.  She countered the excess of poison with an anti-venom procured through the blood of an infected house-elf.  It could be that the venom has other potential properties in combination with other ingredients that Daz was attempting to create.
4.  Daz will turn up in the St. Mungo's Poison Ward with a crazy dose of venom in her blood -- and no wounds or scorch marks whatsoever.  She'd exhibit all of the symptoms but it would be temporary -- as her body creates the antibodies.   

That's as best as I can do at the moment.  It's been hard to work all of these things out within the realm of Daz's potion plot.  I'm still not sure if it really works.  But I love what everyone else is coming up with ^^  It would be cool if we could coordinate this well. 

Loving it!  Allow me to attempt to synthesize?

Runespoor venom at its worst:

• In a dart: Injected right into the blood, Runespoor venom causes quick paralysis, unconsciousness and will eventually stop the heart. Even a pin-prick wound will begin to gush frothy blood.
• From a live, spitting Runespoor: The hot venom from egg-laying females is blue in color and rapidly corrodes skin.  The venom gets into the blood.  If eggs are present in the venom, the wound will pulsate orange.  The wound is very very difficult to treat and can be fatal if all of the venom isn't neutralized.
• A bite/wound tainted with poison: sufficient runespoor venom in an open wound may cause that wound to become unhealable.

What About Fresh vs. Potions-Grade Venom?
Perhaps, as Tamis and Adon and co have been establishing, Runespoor venom can be transported safely by magical means.  Perhaps fresh-from-the-snake venom is absolutely safely handled by magic and this is exactly why it must be transported in that form.  However, how about this: in order to be used for most of its potions uses, it needs to be cured.  This cured, perhaps concentrated, form of the venom is the stuff that's highly volatile and reacts strongly with most types of magic from a wand.

The affects of contact with the cured venom? I love Dazmond's idea.  I think Elle brought this up as well.  The stuff burns on you, and is difficult to treat those burns.  But if it gets into your system, you might take on a split personality, like each of the heads battling for dominance over one body. 

Just adding a few knuts!

I love all the plotting, especially as a chemistry minor, the idea of runespoor venom being an actual magical potion catalyst makes me geekishly giddy. Haha. And since catalysts only speed up a reaction and are not consumed by it, runespoor venom could accelerate the potion process without altering the end result, so it would be like it had never been added. Beneficial to the potion maker and the potion purchaser never knows the difference. Maybe it is an enzyme specific to runespoor venom that gives it this ability?

All these ideas are very awesome and I love them as well. Especially with the different types of venom inflicts and what they do. And the ethics surrounding an antivenom. Which I agree with that it should be somewhat obscure and hard to produce. Otherwise inflictions would not be as big of an ordeal as they are.

If Runespoor Venom is as volatile as we are saying it is, maybe there are secure safety measures one can follow when handling the substance on a micro scale, but I still assume there are vast dangers in handling it on the macro scale that would be necessary for the smuggling operations. Perhaps that is why smugglers concentrate on runespoor eggs rather than the venom itself? The smuggle in the eggs, the black market buys them, breeds and raises the snakes, and then milks them for their venom and sells it.

That would explain the mature runespoors found in the warehouse Covi and the Aurors busted back in May and why they were breeding and incubating eggs rather than just selling the eggs themselves?

Haha, might be a little off base, but just putting it out there.